The Last Jedi (with spoilers)

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by HittingSmoke, Dec 15, 2017.

The Last Jedi (with spoilers)

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by HittingSmoke, Dec 15, 2017.

  1. Arcfire

    Arcfire Guild Admin Staff Member

    Some seem to be of the opinion that Mark had no idea Luke was being killed off until he saw it at the premier... there is precedent as this sort of thing was done in the past with the "no, I am your father" line ebing changed in post production.

    Visually, the movie was a treat. Logically, it was a big ummmm what?
  2. syberghost

    syberghost Guild Admin Staff Member

    OK, so let's examine the past of these characters in direct line from Yoda to Luke.


    Makes mistakes training his apprentice, Dooku, which result in him becoming a Sith Lord, Tyranus. Fails to see the implications of a prophecy about "bringing balance to the Force" when the Force is currently overwhelmingly represented by Jedi. Fails to forsee the rise of Darth Siddius, who converts his direct apprentice to the dark side. Fails to protect Dooku's apprentice, Qui-Gon Jinn, who dies to another Sith Lord. Takes a hands-off approach to advising Jinn's apprentice, Obi-Wan Kenobi, in how to train Anakin Skywalker, who becomes Darth Vader and helps Darth Siddius take over the whole fucking galaxy. Eventually he atones for his failures by going off to a backwater planet to give up being a Jedi Master and become instead a hermit.

    When he gives up being a hermit, it's to train Luke Skywalker in primarily those parts of the Force useful to be an assassin to kill his own father, totally comfortable with letting this happen without even telling Luke that Darth Vader is his father.

    Eventually he dies peacefully in his bed without rejoining the fight in any meaningful way other than training his anti-Vader assassin.

    Dooku: Sith Lord.

    Qui-Gon Jinn: ineffective. Contributes little to the story. Gets killed having accomplished nothing except furtherance of multiple aspects of Siddius' plot.

    Obi-Wan Kenobi:

    Trains his apprentice so poorly he becomes a Sith Lord, Darth Vader. Atones for his failures by going off to a backwater planet to give up being a Jedi Master and instead become a hermit. Eventually begins training Luke Skywalker in straight up nothing except "how to best use a light saber to assassinate this Darth Vader guy who is totally not in any way related to you". Sacrifices himself to Vader for basically no reason other than to make Luke Skywalker hate Vader more.

    Luke Skywalker:

    Luke is trained by two Jedi Masters primarily in those things most useful for assassinating Vader. His training is "complete" as it's going to get when he's turned loose to go kill his dad. Both his masters gave up the Jedi way and became hermits when their failures resulted in disaster.

    Luke forms a Jedi academy, and while trying to deal with the darkness in one student, Ben Solo, he makes a terrible but brief mistake that results in disaster, as Ben becomes a Sith apprentice Kylo Ren and (possibly) takes other students with him. So, he does what both his masters did, and he gives up the Jedi way and becomes a hermit.

    He does, however, eventually sacrifice himself to take a direct role in fixing the mess he's made, making him a far more heroic figure in the end than either Yoda or Kenobi, which is pretty damn amazing considering the deficiencies in his training compared to theirs.

    But sure, Mark, complain that Rian Johnson pissed on the character. Never mind that everything that happens to him makes 100% sense if you continue logically from what's happened to him in the movies and exclude non-canon character development from the Expanded Universe; never mind that he ends more heroically than anybody who trained him.

    My conclusion after watching this movie twice is that Rian Johnson did a better job mentally discarding the Expanded Universe, which is what Disney directed happen with Star Wars, and moving forward with the character development on that basis, than even Mark Hamill did himself.
  3. AndyCapp

    AndyCapp Veteran Member

    Ok turns out, I did end up seeing it this past weekend. I did not buy the ticket though, went with my buddy and his Dad hooked it up. Movie was fun to watch, but painful to witness, if that makes sense? It was not as bad as I thought it would be, but the things that they got wrong are really really wrong lol. Oh well, guess that's life.
  4. HittingSmoke

    HittingSmoke AoA Emeritus

    AndyCapp likes this.
  5. syberghost

    syberghost Guild Admin Staff Member

  6. HittingSmoke

    HittingSmoke AoA Emeritus

    I finally dragged my dick through a second viewing and I can say that it was even worse the second time. Already knowing the plot my attention was drawn easier to really stupid dialog choices and other little quirks that made this feel like a cheap Star Wars knock-off instead of an epic entry in the main Star Wars story line.
    Fell and ALACE like this.

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